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[railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2619] Thu, 07 January 2021 21:31 Go to next message
Michael Gruschwitz is currently offline  Michael Gruschwitz
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2020
Junior Member
*** English version below ***
Hallo!

Für die verschiedenen Varianten der Ankunfts-, Durchfahrts- oder
Abfahrtszeit eines Zuges sind unter <ocpTT><times>@scope bereits
verschiedene Varianten, welche für vorgesehene und realisierte Zeiten
eines Zuges bestimmt sind.
Nach unserer Kenntnis sind die Werte "earliest" und "latest" für Wünsche
an Zeiten eines Zuges sowie "calculated", "scheduled" und "published"
für unterschiedliche Ausprägungen vorher geplanter Zeiten eines Zuges
bestimmt. Für die bereits gefahrenen Zeiten eines Zuges ist "actual"
vorgesehen.
Wir würden gern für einen Zug während der Fahrt auch Prognosen von
Zeiten späterer Betriebsstellen (<ocpTT>) ausdrücken, um zum Beispiel
den zukünftigen Abbau einer Verspätung (z.B. durch geringere Haltezeit)
oder eine kommende zusätzliche Verspätung (z.B. durch zusätzliche
Zugkreuzung) austauschen zu können?

Welcher Wert sollte dafür in railML 2.4 verwendet werden ("published"
und "scheduled" sowie "actual" werden bereits durch uns benutzt)?

Wenn es kein passender Wert zur Verfügung steht: Wäre es möglich, bei
railML 2.5 einen zusätzlichen Wert für diese Art Zeiten (z.B.
"expected") hinzuzufügen?

Freundliche Grüße,
--
Michael Gruschwitz
Bahnkonzept Dresden


Hello!

For the different variants of the arrival, passing or departure times of
a train there are already different variants under <ocpTT><times>@scope,
which are intended for intended and realised times of a train.
As far as we know, the values "earliest" and "latest" are intended for
desired times of a train and "calculated", "scheduled" and "published"
are intended for different versions of previously planned times of a
train. Also "actual" is intended for the times of a train that have
already been driven.
We would also like to express forecasts of times of later operating
control points (<ocpTT>) for a train during the journey, in order to be
able to exchange, for example, the future reduction of a delay (e.g. due
to less used stopping time) or an upcoming additional delay (e.g. due to
additional train crossing)?

Which value should be used for this in railML 2.4 ("published" and
"scheduled" as well as "actual" are already used in our case)?

If there is no suitable value available: Would it be possible to add an
additional value for these kind of times (e.g. "expected") in railML 2.5?

Best regards,
--
Michael Gruschwitz
Bahnkonzept Dresden/Germany
Re: [railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2620 is a reply to message #2619] Fri, 08 January 2021 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Milan Wölke is currently offline  Milan Wölke
Messages: 138
Registered: April 2007
Senior Member
Hallo Michael,

zunächst mal vielen Dank für deine Anfrage. Wenn ich mich recht entsinne gab es eine solche Diskussion im Kontext railML 3 schon einmal. Wenn ich mich weiter richtig erinnere wurde dort festgestellt, dass eine Modellierung von Prognose-Zeiten als 'actual' Zeiten, die aber in der Zukunft liegen (Exportzeitpunkt müsste über die Metadaten bestimmt werden) zwar möglich, aber unschön wäre. Nun ist es so, dass wir eigentlich keine neuen Themen mehr in railML 2.5 aufnehmen wollten, um die Veröffentlichung nicht ewig verschieben zu müssen.
Da ich aber glaube, dass es sich hier aber nur um eine kleine Änderung handeln würde, werde ich das Thema in einer unserer nächsten railML 2 TT Entwicklerrunden ansprechen, um zu sehen, ob die Entwicklergruppe hier einem kleinen Nachtrag zustimmt.
------------------------
First of all, thank you very much for your request. If I remember correctly, there already was such a discussion in the context of railML 3. As I recall, it was stated there that modeling forecast times as 'actual' times that are in the future (export time would have to be determined via the metadata) would be possible, but would not be appealing.
The situation now is that we actually didn't want to add any new topics to railML 2.5, so that we wouldn't have to postpone the release forever.
However, since I believe that this would only be a minor change, I will raise the issue in one of our next railML 2 TT developer rounds to see if the developer group agrees to a small addendum here.

Best regards, Milan


Milan Wölke – Timetable scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2760 is a reply to message #2620] Fri, 11 June 2021 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Nygreen is currently offline  Thomas Nygreen
Messages: 66
Registered: March 2008
Member
Dear all,

Was this concluded? I think it is a reasonable and limited request, that would be fine to include with railML 2.5.

Suggested documentation of the value in the wiki:
expected arrival/departure times at later operation or control points for a train during the journey

Best regards,
Thomas


Thomas Nygreen – Common Schema Coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2778 is a reply to message #2760] Mon, 28 June 2021 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Lichti is currently offline  David Lichti
Messages: 13
Registered: December 2020
Junior Member
Quote:

Suggested documentation of the value in the wiki:
expected arrival/departure times at later operation or control points for a train during the journey
Would this imply, that scope="expected" times for a certain train may only be exchanged, once that train is actually under way? Strictly speaking, this would not cover the entire use case as described in the original post: Additional delays due to additional train crossings or crossings with delayed trains may be known and communicated before the affected train actually begins its trip.

I would rather suggest to link scope="expected" to the data source, which would be a forecast based on realtime data.

Best Regards

David Lichti

[Updated on: Mon, 28 June 2021 09:29]

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Re: [railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2780 is a reply to message #2778] Thu, 01 July 2021 02:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Nygreen is currently offline  Thomas Nygreen
Messages: 66
Registered: March 2008
Member
David Lichti wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:28
Quote:

Suggested documentation of the value in the wiki:
expected arrival/departure times at later operation or control points for a train during the journey
Would this imply, that scope="expected" times for a certain train may only be exchanged, once that train is actually under way? Strictly speaking, this would not cover the entire use case as described in the original post: Additional delays due to additional train crossings or crossings with delayed trains may be known and communicated before the affected train actually begins its trip.

I simply copied the text from the original request: "We would also like to express forecasts of times of later operating control points (<ocpTT>) for a train during the journey". But I agree that the scope can be extended to trains that have not yet started.

David Lichti wrote on Mon, 28 June 2021 09:28
I would rather suggest to link scope="expected" to the data source, which would be a forecast based on realtime data.

Would the following list work? (I've also shortened some of the other descriptions):

actual recorded arrival and departure times
expected times based on realtime data
calculated times from a simulation tool
published times that the passengers get on written sheets or online
scheduled times for operational purposes
earliest acceptable arrival and/or departure time (used to express a wish of a customer at a very early planning stage of a new timetable)
latest acceptable arrival and/or departure time (used to express a wish of a customer at a very early planning stage of a new timetable)
other:anything

Best regards,
Thomas


Thomas Nygreen – Common Schema Coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Prognostizierte Zeiten / Expected times [message #2824 is a reply to message #2780] Tue, 07 September 2021 15:18 Go to previous message
Milan Wölke is currently offline  Milan Wölke
Messages: 138
Registered: April 2007
Senior Member
This topic has been concluded with https://trac.railml.org/ticket/472 and included in the release of railML 2.5

Milan Wölke – Timetable scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
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