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Fahrgastzahlen in railML [message #919] Thu, 07 February 2013 13:44 Go to next message
Christoph.Jobmann is currently offline  Christoph.Jobmann
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2010
Junior Member
---- German version, for English version see below

Hallo zusammen,

ich wurde kuerzlich von einem Kollegen angesprochen, ob die Moeglichkeit
besteht, per railML Fahrgastzahlen zu uebermitteln. Spontan konnte ich
hierzu nichts sagen, und auch nach einigen Blicken in Wiki, html-Doku und
Forum habe ich hierzu keine passende Antwort gefunden.

Konkret ist hier die Frage, wie viele Fahrgaeste auf dem Abschnitt
zwischen zwei Halten in einem Zug mitfahren - unter Umstaenden noch
aufgeschluesselt nach 1. und 2. Wagenklasse.
Ist dies mit railML ohne zusaetzliche Elemente und / oder Attribute
moeglich?

Falls nein: Am liebsten wuerde ich hierfuer das Element sectionTT
ergaenzen. Da hier jedoch keine Erweiterungen vorgesehen sind, waere der
ocpTT mein naechster Kandidat fuer ein neues Element, welches die Anzahl
Fahrgaeste ab diesem Halt (unter Umstaenden noch mit Moeglichkeit,
Einsteiger und Aussteiger explizit anzugeben, wobei dies nicht unbedingt
gebraucht wuerde).

Wie seht ihr / sehen Sie das? Ist dies in railML darstellbar? Sieht noch
jemand Bedarf, diese Information zu uebermitteln?

Viele Gruesse
Christoph Jobmann


---- English version

Hello everyone,

recently a colleague asked me if there was a way to transmit passenger
numbers for trains via railML. At first I was unable to answer this
question and even after a few glances at the Wiki, the html-documentation
and this forum I have not found an answer yet.

The actual question is: How many passengers travel along a section between
two consecutive stops on a specific train - maybe broken down into 1st and
2nd class travellers?
Is there a way to transmit this kind of information with railML without
use of additional elements and / or attributes?

If not: I would like it best to put this information in the element
sectionTT. However this one is not marked for extensions. This draws my
attention to the element ocpTT as next candidate for a new element
describing the number of passengers travelling from this ocp to the
consecutive one. Additional infomation regarding boarding / deboarding
passengers might be added, however we probably would not use it.

What do you think? Is it possible to give this kind of information with
railML? Is anyone else interested in transmitting actual passenger numbers?

Kind regards
Christoph Jobmann

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Re: Fahrgastzahlen in railML [message #921 is a reply to message #919] Fri, 08 February 2013 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joachim Rubröder railML is currently offline  Joachim Rubröder railML
Messages: 0
Registered: November 2019
Dear Christoph,

> The actual question is: How many passengers travel along a section between
> two consecutive stops on a specific train - maybe broken down into 1st and
> 2nd class travellers?
> Is there a way to transmit this kind of information with railML without
> use of additional elements and / or attributes?

There is the seat capacity within the element
formationTT/passengerUsage/places.
But the question of the number of really used places has to be discussed
together with the greater issue of how to deal with a real driven
timetable within railML. This includes delays and actual run times.

Filed a Trac ticket for this issue:
https://trac.assembla.com/railML/ticket/220

Kind regards,
Joachim

-------------------------------------
Joachim Rubröder
Schema Coordinator: railML.timetable


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Re: Fahrgastzahlen in railML [message #922 is a reply to message #921] Fri, 08 February 2013 14:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Susanne Wunsch railML is currently offline  Susanne Wunsch railML
Messages: 0
Registered: January 2020
Dear Joachim and Christoph,

coord(at)timetablerailmlorg (Joachim Rubroeder) writes:
>> The actual question is: How many passengers travel along a section
>> between two consecutive stops on a specific train - maybe broken down
>> into 1st and 2nd class travellers? Is there a way to transmit this
>> kind of information with railML without use of additional elements
>> and / or attributes?

> But the question of the number of really used places has to be discussed
> together with the greater issue of how to deal with a real driven
> timetable within railML. This includes delays and actual run times.

+1

see also http://trac.assembla.com/railML/ticket/188

> Filed a Trac ticket for this issue:
> https://trac.assembla.com/railML/ticket/220

Thanks for following the proposed workflow. ;-)

As a quick fix, I would suggest any-attributes and any-elements in the
"statistics" element. But so far there are only ocp-related statistic
values, no section-related ones.

Maybe some additional any-attributes and
any-elements in the "sectionTT" element would help further.

Both enhancements may help other users with their currently unspoken
needs, too.

A better solution for 2.x is conceivable. Let's discuss this issue
further in this thread for preparing a good implementation proposal.

Kind regards...
Susanne

--
Susanne Wunsch
Schema Coordinator: railML.common
Re: Fahrgastzahlen in railML [message #934 is a reply to message #922] Tue, 12 March 2013 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dirk Bräuer is currently offline  Dirk Bräuer
Messages: 311
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Dear all

and @dear Christoph: Which kind of "Fahrgastzahlen" do you mean? Actually
counted numbers of passengers of the past? Or expected numbers of
passengers in the meaning of "minimum seating places to be available"?

I also think (like Joachim) that "Fahrgastzahlen" of the first type
(actually counted) are a matter of the greater topic "actual data" (in
contrary to "pre-planned timetable data"). It is strongly connected with
the question "At which day these passenger numbers have been counted",
which leads us back to the already discussed topic "actual operating
days". We agreed to handle this outside the scope of the current
<timetable> scheme.

Concerning numbers of passengers in the second meaning (expected), they
are clearly a matter of <timetable> in the pre-planned meaning so I could
imagine some elements and attributes for them in the current scheme. But I
would name them "minimum necessary places" or so - not "passenger numbers"
to clarify the difference.

It would fit to the typical "Musterfahrplan" (pattern timetable) of
advertisements / competitions where normally all trains have minimum
places to be provided by the competitor. Often they are distinguished by
operating days (Mon-Fri, Sat, Sun). So either we allow a kind of
operatingPeriodRef with this information or we expect to place different
trains/trainParts for each operatingPeriodRef. The latter would be ok from
my side.

Best regards,
Dirk.
Re: Fahrgastzahlen in railML [message #940 is a reply to message #934] Thu, 14 March 2013 12:06 Go to previous message
Christoph.Jobmann is currently offline  Christoph.Jobmann
Messages: 12
Registered: October 2010
Junior Member
Dear all,

Dirk Bräuer wrote:
>
> Dear all
>
> and @dear Christoph: Which kind of "Fahrgastzahlen" do you mean? Actually
> counted numbers of passengers of the past? Or expected numbers of
> passengers in the meaning of "minimum seating places to be available"?
> [...]
> Concerning numbers of passengers in the second meaning (expected), they
> are clearly a matter of <timetable> in the pre-planned meaning so I could
> imagine some elements and attributes for them in the current scheme. But I
> would name them "minimum necessary places" or so - not "passenger numbers"
> to clarify the difference.
>

Personally I am not involved directly in this topic but the colleague that
approached me was thinking about expected passenger numbers.
It might be used as a measure to point out the required capacity as Dirk
pointed out, but also to give a measure for the expected revenues from
ticket sales - which would be an argument against using the term "minimum
neccessary places" (even though I do realize that passengers without a
seat are less happy in general).

However I do not see such a big difference between actually using a given
passenger number as an "expected number" versus a "counted number": It
might even be distinguished via an appropriate scope attribute
("expected", "actual", "average", "requested", etc. or similar).

> It would fit to the typical "Musterfahrplan" (pattern timetable) of
> advertisements / competitions where normally all trains have minimum
> places to be provided by the competitor. Often they are distinguished by
> operating days (Mon-Fri, Sat, Sun). So either we allow a kind of
> operatingPeriodRef with this information or we expect to place different
> trains/trainParts for each operatingPeriodRef. The latter would be ok from
> my side.

I would prefer to see several occurences with distinct operatingPeriodRef
within one trainPart but it would also be okay to repeat the trainPart
themselves.

Best regards
Christoph



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