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[railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2733] Mon, 24 May 2021 12:58 Go to next message
Milan Wölke is currently offline  Milan Wölke
Messages: 69
Registered: April 2007
Member
Hi,

in the timetable developer group we recently discussed passenger information in trains and its support by railML. Many of the timetable extensions for railML 2.5 are inspired by the need of feeding systems related to passenger information using railML. Most of these could be handled inside the timetable subschema itself.
However we recently came across some requirements that would be best modelled by extending the infrastructure subschema. In particular we were thinking about ways to describe when a special text on a display should be shown and when it should be removed again. The requirement from the community is that this should be possible when entering or leaving a certain area that can be defined around a point in the infrastructure. From our point of view such area would best be defined in the infrastructure subschema as part of the OCP.

Looking at the existing work in infrastructure we came up with this idea for modelling areas like that:

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=83&private=0

So below //infrastructure/operationControlPoints/ocp/propOther we would like to add "informationAreas" as a container, that can be filled with informationArea elements, each specifying an id for later referencing from timetable. Each informationArea would define its shape around the OCP as a set of coordinates. We so far discussed rectangle, polygon and circle.
While the definition of circle and polygone is pretty clear to us, we would appreciate help in modelling rectangular areas. Our discussing showed that using two points like we usually do in computer graphics will not work. So also here we would like to benefit from the experience of the infrastructure group.

So to sum it up, we want to add information areas to the OCPs and we would need help in describing a rectangular area in a non redundant way with geocoordinates.

What is your opinion? What should the name of such information area be? Can you help us with the rectangle?

Thanks in advance for any support you can render.

Best regards, Milan
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Milan Wölke - Timetable scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2738 is a reply to message #2733] Fri, 28 May 2021 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
christian.rahmig is currently offline  christian.rahmig
Messages: 328
Registered: January 2016
Senior Member
Dear Milan,

thank you for sharing these ideas from the TT developers group with the IS community.

The approach of modelling "infomation areas" around OCPs sounds reasonable although it is not "touchable" infrastructure in a straight definition. So, I am curious to hear/read from the community about their needs for having information areas modelled within railML 2.5.

Some specific questions:
* Will information areas also needed for other infrastructure elements, e.g. level crossings or bridges or tunnels?
* naming: To make it more precise, how about <passengerInformationArea>?
* Is there any linking with other types of areas, e.g. track-related areas?

Finally, let's come to the rectangle challenge:
Generally, any kind of area will use <geoCoord> elements to define certain points describing the area boundaries. Every <geoCoord> element contains the attribute @epsgCode to define the coordinate reference system of the coordinate. For instance, EPSG::4326 specifies a WGS84 coordinate in 2D with latitude and longitude axes. Therefore, although not explicitly modelled in railML, the axes of the coordinates are given. Consequently, it is absolutely possible to model a rectangle using two coordinate positions: the rectangle is defined by lower left and upper right point with sides being parallel to the axes defined by the coordinate reference system (EPSG code). But you have to make sure, that all coordinate positions of the rectangle (as well as for any other geoemtry) are linked with the same coordinate reference system.

Any comments from the community are highly appreciated...

Best regards
Christian


Christian Rahmig - Infrastructure scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2743 is a reply to message #2738] Tue, 01 June 2021 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Christian Rößiger is currently offline  Christian Rößiger
Messages: 53
Registered: March 2015
Member
Hello Christian,

we have another question about the representation of the <information
Areas>. We use the <tGeoCoord> elements to define their dimensions.
These also contain information about the height of an item. However, in
the context of the <informationArea> this is irrelevant and could
possibly lead to confusion. In our view, it would be a clearer modelling
if we used geo-coordinates that do not contain height information. Since
we do not necessarily want to introduce a new element for this, our
question is whether such an element already exists. Alternatively, we
would use the existing <tGeoCoord> element and point out in the
documentation that in this context the height should not be specified.

Best regards
Christian Rößiger
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Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2755 is a reply to message #2743] Fri, 11 June 2021 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Torben Brand is currently offline  Torben Brand
Messages: 125
Registered: March 2016
Senior Member
Hi,

I would like to make you aware of the proposal for a generic area in railML2.5 (but now postponed for 2.6).
Orriginal proposal (found here https://www.railml.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=804& goto=2681&#msg_2681) was for UC for trac sections (for TVD), but implementation as in railML2.4nor (See chapter 4.6 in https://www.jernbanedirektoratet.no/globalassets/documenter/ railml/20201217_railml2.4norisdocumentation_v1.4.pdf) is generic and could also be used for the purpose of an OCP information area.
Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2759 is a reply to message #2743] Fri, 11 June 2021 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
christian.rahmig is currently offline  christian.rahmig
Messages: 328
Registered: January 2016
Senior Member
Dear Christian,

Christian Rößiger wrote on Tue, 01 June 2021 16:25
...
In our view, it would be a clearer modelling if we used geo-coordinates that do not contain height information. Since
we do not necessarily want to introduce a new element for this, our
question is whether such an element already exists. Alternatively, we
would use the existing <tGeoCoord> element and point out in the
documentation that in this context the height should not be specified.

I suggest to define this rule of having only 2-dimensional coordinates for information areas as a semantic constraint for two reasons:
* we don't need to define a new datatype for a spatial coordinate, but can make use of the existing one
* we remain open for future changes, e.g. when railways conquer also the vertical dimension of space ;-)

I created a new Trac ticket #473 [1] for the topic to be included in railML 2.5.

[1] https://trac.railml.org/ticket/473

Best regards
Christian


Christian Rahmig - Infrastructure scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2761 is a reply to message #2755] Fri, 11 June 2021 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
christian.rahmig is currently offline  christian.rahmig
Messages: 328
Registered: January 2016
Senior Member
Dear all,

Torben Brand wrote on Fri, 11 June 2021 13:21
Hi,

I would like to make you aware of the proposal for a generic area in railML2.5 (but now postponed for 2.6).
Orriginal proposal (found here https://www.railml.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=804& goto=2681&#msg_2681) was for UC for trac sections (for TVD), but implementation as in railML2.4nor (See chapter 4.6 in https://www.jernbanedirektoratet.no/globalassets/documenter/ railml/20201217_railml2.4norisdocumentation_v1.4.pdf) is generic and could also be used for the purpose of an OCP information area.

I appreciate Torben's idea of fusing the approaches of the generic <area> and the OCP's informationArea. What does the community think about it? And secondly, is it sufficient to have the OCP's informationArea implemented with railML 2.6 (like planned for the generic <area> element)?

Any comments are very much welcome...

Best regards
Christian


Christian Rahmig - Infrastructure scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org
Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2764 is a reply to message #2761] Tue, 15 June 2021 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Milan Wölke is currently offline  Milan Wölke
Messages: 69
Registered: April 2007
Member
Hi,

I am afraid postponing it to 2.6 would not be soon enough for some members of the timetable community. Since passenger information is a major point of the timetable 2.5 changes I think it would make sense to include that too in order too keep things together.

Regarding the questions above:

Quote:

* Will information areas also needed for other infrastructure elements, e.g. level crossings or bridges or tunnels?
* naming: To make it more precise, how about <passengerInformationArea>?
* Is there any linking with other types of areas, e.g. track-related areas?
We will need those information areas also for tracks and platformEdges. I have created a branch where those changes could be reviewed already in the repository: https://svn.railml.org/railML2/branches/passengerInfo.infras tructure/schema/
Other infrastructure elements havent been requested so far.

Regarding the naming I think your proposal would be fine and a bit more clear. Let me know if I should include that change in the branch above.

Regarding linking, Im not aware of such links. Dont think this is an issue.

Best regards, Milan




Milan Wölke - Timetable scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org

[Updated on: Tue, 15 June 2021 11:01]

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Re: [railML2] Adding a new element informationArea to ocp [message #2765 is a reply to message #2764] Tue, 15 June 2021 13:47 Go to previous message
Thomas Kabisch is currently offline  Thomas Kabisch
Messages: 7
Registered: September 2020
Junior Member
Hello,

for our use case "Passenger information within trains" it is essential to have some kind of area that surrounds dedicated infrastructure objects (most important are OCP's) available in RailML 2.5.
We use areas to control the dynamic behaviour of the PIS. For example, the PIS system initiatates an announcement in the moment when the train enters the area of a dedicated station.
A fusion with a generic area element is reasonable for us as well if a link between the underlying infrastructure element (i.e. ocp) and the area is supported.

Regards,
Thomas
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