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Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2393] Wed, 11 March 2020 15:15 Go to next message
Stefan de Konink is currently offline  Stefan de Konink
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019
Junior Member
I have a question regarding the use of ocpTT's within a station.

Considering the following sample:

          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Vvl" ocpType="stop" sequence="10" trackInfo="252">
            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
            <sectionTT>
              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--667658658"/>
            </sectionTT>
          </ocpTT>
          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="pass" sequence="11" trackInfo="7A">
            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
            <sectionTT>
              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--1709210067"/>
            </sectionTT>
          </ocpTT>
          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="stop" sequence="12" trackInfo="7B">
            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
          </ocpTT>
        </ocpsTT>

Is the ocpTT of 7A allowed as pass? Or is it never allowed to use the same ocp in a ocpsTT?
Re: Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2394 is a reply to message #2393] Thu, 12 March 2020 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dirk Bräuer is currently offline  Dirk Bräuer
Messages: 311
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Dear Stefan,

it is not intended to have ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" (nor any ocpRef) two times _immediately following_ each other.

It is allowed that the same ocpRef occurs two times in the same <trainPart> or <train> in case the train really passes the station two times, running a loop or reversing at an intermediate station, but this needs a different intermediate station.

You can only express one @trackInfo per ocpRef. To encode several (serially passed) tracks in the same station, a different approach would be needed, for instance multiple <trackRef> or a combined code in one @trackInfo.

Best regards,
Dirk.
Re: Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2395 is a reply to message #2394] Thu, 12 March 2020 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stefan de Konink is currently offline  Stefan de Konink
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019
Junior Member
Dirk do I understand your comment correct that if I would slightly change it to 19:09:00, 19:09:15, 19:09:45 it still would be invalid because they are referring to the same OCP?

          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Vvl" ocpType="stop" sequence="10" trackInfo="252">
            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
            <sectionTT>
              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--667658658"/>
            </sectionTT>
          </ocpTT>
          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="pass" sequence="11" trackInfo="7A">
            <times arrival="19:09:15" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:15" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
            <sectionTT>
              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--1709210067"/>
            </sectionTT>
          </ocpTT>
          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="stop" sequence="12" trackInfo="7B">
            <times arrival="19:09:45" arrivalDay="0" departure="19:09:45" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
          </ocpTT>
        </ocpsTT>
Re: Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2397 is a reply to message #2393] Fri, 13 March 2020 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vasco Paul Kolmorgen
Messages: 55
Registered: November 2004
Member
Dear Stefan,

thank you for the interesting question. First of all I would like to
learn for what kind of use case this need for a railway data exchange is
given in the Netherlands. Could you describe a little bit more detailed?

From my opinion your sample should not be used for semantic reasons.
As good practice in the files I had seen in the past and also described
in the railML 2 wiki
(https://wiki2.railml.org/index.php?title=TT:ocpTT#Semantics) each ocpTT
shall only appear once within a trainPart. Unfortunately this issue is
described there on German only ("Als Regel darf jeder ocpTT nur einmal
innerhalb eines trainParts auftauchen.") However, I will gladly take
your question and suggestion to one of the next telephone conferences of
TT developers and ask for contributions to the discussion and opinions.
I would also like to suggest a possibly clearer presentation in the
section "Semantic Constraints" as well as a statement for the current
development of railML 3.x.

Let me highlight some other problems in your example:
- Your example uses "speaking ID's" like ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Vvl"
which should be avoided, as 'StopArea' could be parsed and used by a
reading programme. See
https://wiki2.railml.org/index.php?title=Dev:identities for more
information.
- Independent of the concrete times at the individual <ocpTT> I
consider the double use to be very problematic, because different
further characteristics can exist. In your example this is given by
ocpType="stop" and ocpType="pass".

Best regards,
--
Vasco Paul Kolmorgen - Governance Coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Phone railML.org: +49 351 47582911
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org

Am 11.03.2020 um 15:15 schrieb Stefan de Konink:
> I have a question regarding the use of ocpTT's within a
> station.
>
> Considering the following sample:
>
>          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Vvl" ocpType="stop"
> sequence="10" trackInfo="252">
>            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0"
> departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
>            <sectionTT>
>              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--667658658"/>
>            </sectionTT>
>          </ocpTT>
>          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="pass"
> sequence="11" trackInfo="7A">
>            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0"
> departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
>            <sectionTT>
>              <trackRef ref="ARR-ServiceLink--1709210067"/>
>            </sectionTT>
>          </ocpTT>
>          <ocpTT ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" ocpType="stop"
> sequence="12" trackInfo="7B">
>            <times arrival="19:09:00" arrivalDay="0"
> departure="19:09:00" departureDay="0" scope="scheduled"/>
>          </ocpTT>
>        </ocpsTT>
>
>
> Is the ocpTT of 7A allowed as pass? Or is it never allowed
> to use the same ocp in a ocpsTT?
Re: Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2398 is a reply to message #2395] Mon, 16 March 2020 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dirk Bräuer is currently offline  Dirk Bräuer
Messages: 311
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Dear Stefan,

> Dirk do I understand your comment correct that if I would
> slightly change it to 19:09:00, 19:09:15, 19:09:45 it still
> would be invalid because they are referring to the same OCP?

Yes of course, it still would be invalid. As I wrote: It is not intended to have ocpRef="ARR-StopArea-Gn" (nor any ocpRef) two times immediately following each other.

If the train passes two parts of the same station in sequence (e. g. two signals, signal boxes etc.), and you want to give passing times for each part of the station, these station-parts have to become separate <ocp>s. See also [1].

Best regards,
Dirk.

[1]
https://wiki2.railml.org/index.php?title=Dev:Types_of_ocps#B ahnhofsteile_.E2.80.A2_Longer_station_with_more_than_one_.E2 .80.9Cstopping_place.E2.80.9D_per_route
Re: Multiple ocpTT within a station [message #2415 is a reply to message #2398] Mon, 06 April 2020 20:47 Go to previous message
Milan Wölke is currently offline  Milan Wölke
Messages: 143
Registered: April 2007
Senior Member
Hi Stefan,

as Vasco said, we will need to know a little more about what you are trying to achieve. Depending on the use case I think a possible way of modelling this could be to break up your OCP "ARR-StopArea-Gn" into several ones and group those using parentOcpRef (microscopic view of the infrastructure), like Dirk suggested. Knowing the use case would help us to determine if this would be a feasable solution or if other constraints apply.

Best regards, Milan


Milan Wölke – Timetable scheme coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org

[Updated on: Mon, 06 April 2020 20:52]

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