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UIC train transport id [message #759] Thu, 15 March 2012 13:22 Go to next message
Andreas Tanner is currently offline  Andreas Tanner
Messages: 52
Registered: March 2012
Member
Hello friends of RailML,

what about a dedicated attribute for the UIC "train transport id"? We
have indeed customers that use this id. The appropriate location would
be at the train element.

Regards

Andreas Tanner.
Re: UIC train transport id [message #769 is a reply to message #759] Tue, 27 March 2012 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Tanner is currently offline  Andreas Tanner
Messages: 52
Registered: March 2012
Member
Am 15.03.2012 13:22, schrieb Andreas Tanner:
> Hello friends of RailML,
>
> what about a dedicated attribute for the UIC "train transport id"? We
> have indeed customers that use this id. The appropriate location would
> be at the train element.
>
> Regards
>
> Andreas Tanner.

The specification of the id can be found here:

http://www.uic.org/IMG/pdf/111122_wg_10_handbook_final.pdf

The id has the following structure:

"Object Type" : alphanumeric enumeration with values "TR", "PA", "PR", "CR"

"Company": four digits numeric

"Core": 12 letters alphanumeric

"Variant": 2 letters alphanumeric

"Timetable year": year
"Start date": date (optional)

The id should be modeled as an optional child of <train>.
Re: UIC train transport id [message #770 is a reply to message #759] Tue, 27 March 2012 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dirk Bräuer is currently offline  Dirk Bräuer
Messages: 255
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Hello Andreas,

as far as I can remember, on 19th March 2012 we thought about having an
example and may be a recommendation where and how you wanted this new
attribute to be included.

- Can you write an official source of "UIC train transport id"?

- Is it a property of an operational train, a commercial train or of a
train part? This means: Will it be used with timetable to be 'published'
in any kind (which would bring us to commercial trains) or with trains of
an Infrastructure Company (which may bring us to operational trains)
and/or can it change during a run of a train (which would bring us to
train parts but I think this is improbable).

- How does it work with these typical trains having the same train number
(DB: "Ergänzungsfahrpläne")? Or: Is it sure that each train has a
different "UIC train transport id" or may it be that there are two trains
with the same "UIC train transport id"?

Since you are the only one who needs it so far and who knows the origins,
I think you are the only one who knows this.

> We have indeed customers that use this id.

Yes, but that does not necessarily bring it into RailML. There are many
information used by customers but not in RailML. To get it into RailML,
there should be a demand on _exchanging_ these information, which normally
means that at least two programmes need it.

"UIC train transport id" sounds as general as if we could implement it
ahead in advance. But we have to make a good decision where and how
because if we make a mistake there, it is not easily to correct in future.

Best regards,
Dirk.
Re: UIC train transport id [message #771 is a reply to message #769] Tue, 27 March 2012 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dirk Bräuer is currently offline  Dirk Bräuer
Messages: 255
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
I'm sorry, there has been again a crossing at the double-track Internet....
(It seams that an old "Reichsbahner" like me is not familiar with too much
double-track.)

I've seen that Andreas has already answered so of the open questions.

I hat a look into the source which Andreas sent. It seams to be an
'approach' to the problem of train numbers but only from the view of one
Infrastructure Company and also more for freight traffic than for
passenger traffic.

Some of the problems are well-known. So for instance they write:

"Uniqueness of the code"
"It is the responsibility of the company that creates the code to ensure
its uniqueness. Because a code
is prefixed with the type and company codes a company only needs to ensure
the “core element” is
unique in each timetable period."

It deals a little bit with the problem of more than one Operator being
involved in one train by defining a 'lead operator' (lead RU). Even this
is - from my opinion - a little bit blauäugig because in most cases one
Train Operating Company (TOC) does not 'subordinate' under another. At
least it is my experience.

But what it does not deal with it the problem of one train crossing over
the infrastructure of more than one Infrastructure Company - and that is
by far not an academic problem! There is no "leading infrastructure
company" and it would also be unrealistic. So that means, there may be a
'train' (in general) München - Zürich which has a different "UIC train
transport id" at DB Netz tracks than it has at SBB tracks. The same
applies to a train Hagenow Land - Neustrelitz which crosses three
Infrastructure Companies, one double. So this train then has three "UIC
train transport ids"? Or four because DB Netz cannot use one double?

Anyway, we should be very careful here.

- It is now-days hard to imagine that a 'company' like DB Netz follows
the rules of this document. At least it will take a 'few' years until the
"big" Infrastructure Companies of our world recognise this "UIC train
transport ids" and again a 'few' years until they implement it in their
software...

- If we must implement it now in RailML, it seams to be better to put it
to the train part because I guess (I'm afraid) that each Infrastructure
Company uses its own "UIC train transport id".

- It is the philosophy of RailML to put everything which can change into
a train part and let the train do only the grouping of train parts. We
should not break this principle.

I would prefer to wait with this "UIC train transport id" and to handle it
in a wider topic like "compatibility to Pathfinder" where we could assign
a Diplomarbeit or so.
But this is only my opinion.

Best regards,
Dirk.
Re: UIC train transport id [message #778 is a reply to message #771] Thu, 26 April 2012 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joachim Rubröder is currently offline  Joachim Rubröder
Messages: 89
Registered: April 2007
Member
I discussed this question with Andreas at the meeting on 24.04.2012 and he
agreed that such a field would be fine but it's a bit too eary to decide
how to define the field in the proper way. I therefore created an issue
#147 for version 2.x


Dirk Bräuer wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, there has been again a crossing at the double-track Internet...
> (It seams that an old "Reichsbahner" like me is not familiar with too much
> double-track.)
>
> I've seen that Andreas has already answered so of the open questions.
>
> I hat a look into the source which Andreas sent. It seams to be an
> 'approach' to the problem of train numbers but only from the view of one
> Infrastructure Company and also more for freight traffic than for
> passenger traffic.
>
> Some of the problems are well-known. So for instance they write:
>
> "Uniqueness of the code"
> "It is the responsibility of the company that creates the code to ensure
> its uniqueness. Because a code
> is prefixed with the type and company codes a company only needs to ensure
> the “core element” is
> unique in each timetable period."
>
> It deals a little bit with the problem of more than one Operator being
> involved in one train by defining a 'lead operator' (lead RU). Even this
> is - from my opinion - a little bit blauäugig because in most cases one
> Train Operating Company (TOC) does not 'subordinate' under another. At
> least it is my experience.
>
> But what it does not deal with it the problem of one train crossing over
> the infrastructure of more than one Infrastructure Company - and that is
> by far not an academic problem! There is no "leading infrastructure
> company" and it would also be unrealistic. So that means, there may be a
> 'train' (in general) München - Zürich which has a different "UIC train
> transport id" at DB Netz tracks than it has at SBB tracks. The same
> applies to a train Hagenow Land - Neustrelitz which crosses three
> Infrastructure Companies, one double. So this train then has three "UIC
> train transport ids"? Or four because DB Netz cannot use one double?
>
> Anyway, we should be very careful here.
>
> - It is now-days hard to imagine that a 'company' like DB Netz follows
> the rules of this document. At least it will take a 'few' years until the
> "big" Infrastructure Companies of our world recognise this "UIC train
> transport ids" and again a 'few' years until they implement it in their
> software...
>
> - If we must implement it now in RailML, it seams to be better to put it
> to the train part because I guess (I'm afraid) that each Infrastructure
> Company uses its own "UIC train transport id".
>
> - It is the philosophy of RailML to put everything which can change into
> a train part and let the train do only the grouping of train parts. We
> should not break this principle.
>
> I would prefer to wait with this "UIC train transport id" and to handle it
> in a wider topic like "compatibility to Pathfinder" where we could assign
> a Diplomarbeit or so.
> But this is only my opinion.
>
> Best regards,
> Dirk.
>
>



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Need of UIC Train Transport ID in railML 2.5 / 3.2? (Re: UIC train transport id) [message #2211 is a reply to message #759] Mon, 24 June 2019 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vpkolmorgen
Messages: 39
Registered: November 2004
Member
Dear all,

in the today's Coordinators Meeting in Zurich we browsed through ancient
tickets and found #147 with the "UIC Train Transport ID" which was asked
and discussed in 2012 (see https://trac.railml.org/ticket/147).

Is there a need of this "UIC Train Transport ID" in railML 2.5 / 3.2?

Please answer until End of June 2019 with a detailed description of the
request and citeable sources (the old link to UIC.org is dead and no
other sources could be found on a quick web research).

If there is no request from the community we will close the ticket. For
sure it can be reopened if there is a request from the railway sector.

Best regards,
--
Vasco Paul Kolmorgen - Governance Coordinator
railML.org (Registry of Associations: VR 5750)
Phone railML.org: +49 351 47582911
Altplauen 19h; 01187 Dresden; Germany www.railML.org

Am 15.03.2012 um 13:22 schrieb Andreas Tanner:
> Hello friends of RailML,
>
> what about a dedicated attribute for the UIC "train transport id"? We
> have indeed customers that use this id. The appropriate location would
> be at the train element.
>
> Regards
>
> Andreas Tanner.
Re: Need of UIC Train Transport ID in railML 2.5 / 3.2? (Re: UIC train transport id) [message #2212 is a reply to message #2211] Tue, 25 June 2019 08:12 Go to previous message
Christian Rößiger is currently offline  Christian Rößiger
Messages: 34
Registered: March 2015
Member
Dear all,

it seems to me that this proposed "UIC train transport id" corresponds
exactly to the tafTapTsiTrainID
( https://wiki.railml.org/index.php?title=TT:tafTapTsiTrainID_ train) that
we introduced in railML with version 2.3.

Best regards,
Christian Rößiger

Am 24.06.2019 um 16:04 schrieb Vasco Paul Kolmorgen:
> Dear all,
>
> in the today's Coordinators Meeting in Zurich we browsed through ancient
> tickets and found #147 with the "UIC Train Transport ID" which was asked
> and discussed in 2012 (see https://trac.railml.org/ticket/147).
>
> Is there a need of this "UIC Train Transport ID" in railML 2.5 / 3.2?
>
> Please answer until End of June 2019 with a detailed description of the
> request and citeable sources (the old link to UIC.org is dead and no
> other sources could be found on a quick web research).
>
> If there is no request from the community we will close the ticket. For
> sure it can be reopened if there is a request from the railway sector.
>
> Best regards,


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